Choklit Blog #47: Romans 8 debate. That was totally not supposed to rhyme.

This isn’t going to be written in my normal blogging style where I just kind of talk about something, because this wasn’t originally supposed to be a blog. It’s actually from a debate on an online forum, but I thought it would make a nice blog. Sorry it's so long. Enjoy. 

HIM:

Romans 8:28-39. I'll break it down.

vs. 28-30 "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the first born among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."

Okay fun one here. Every stage of the Christian walk is outlined here and they are all outlined in the past tense. God already justified us, meaning our right to go to heaven is set all by his effort, not our effort through repenting and confessing. It's done when we accept him into our hearts, nothing afterwards can change that. Don't believe me just go on a little more. Next 2 verses aren't vital so I'll move on.

ME:

The reason this is written in the past tense is because it's talking about people who have already been called, accepted Christ and therefore been justified, then died and been glorified (brought to true eternal glory in heaven with God, because they're already dead). It does outline each step of the Christian walk, but it's referring to people who have already done it. That's why it's in the past tense; not because everyone in the world has already done it. Now technically both of our views of this could be valid arguments, except that yours in disproved by 1 John 1:9 which says we must confess our sins. Mine isn't.

HIM:

vs. 33-35 "Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?"

Very clear, very, very, very clear. Nothing can separate us because our justification is all in Christ. He is the one interceding, the one who "prays without ceasing".  And notice he mention "nakedness" or in other words shame and guilt, a sin that hasn't been forgiven. Think about it.

ME:

This is telling us not to judge others. Basically, don't be legalistic. It's like the Pharisees making up their own laws about what you can and can't do on the Sabbath and trying to condemn others for not following them. But if you're not following God's laws, you're sinning. God justifies and condemns through the laws in His word; He doesn't justify sin and take back His word. That's not someone judging you; that's just the Bible being true. Also, Jesus does intercede for us, that's true--when we confess our sins, like 1 John 1:9 says. As for praying without ceasing, yes I'm sure He does that, but we're also instructed to do it. The verse doesn't say "Jesus prays without ceasing", it says "[You], pray without ceasing."

It says that negative circumstances in our lives cannot separate us from the love of God---God always loves us, true. But it doesn't say that nothing can separate us from His presence. Check out Isaiah 59:2: "But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear." Sin does separate you from God's presence; hell is the afterlife from those who have separated themselves from God.

Also, it says "nakedness", not unforgiven sin. They are not the same thing. Nakedness means having no clothes on.

HIM:

vs. 37-39 "No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Nothing, I mean NOTHING can separate us from God. And especially a sin that we haven't confessed or asked forgiveness for. Because our actions cannot transcend God's love and Christ justifying sacrifice.

ME:

You say nothing can separate us from God, but like I just said, these verses say that nothing can separate us from the LOVE of God. But sin separates from the PRESENCE of God. You can still go to hell even though God loves you. If your parents love you and they try to raise you right and offer guidance, but you refuse and run away to join the circus, you probably won't have a perfect life because you chose the wrong path. Your parents still love you, but it's ultimately your decision. God is our heavenly Father and he wants to raise us right, but sometimes we don't listen and we will reap the consequences. We can repent and come back home if we chose, but until then, we're on our own.

Also, "Christ's justifying sacrifice"... His sacrifice wasn't to justify sin. It was to justify us, as in make us Christlike when we confess our sins like we're instructed to do in 1 John.

Since you've brought up Romans 8, I'd like to talk about the beginning of the chapter.

v. 1-4

“Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.”

Most people look at this and say "Those who are in Christ Jesus are those who prayed and accepted Jesus once and now wear the title Christian. They can never be condemned to hell." The problem comes when you try to use your own definition of "those who are in Christ Jesus".

People also tend to say "Jesus set us free from the law. That means we can do whatever we want." Jesus set us free from the law of sin and death, where if you sin you are immediately killed. Instead, He died for us so we can repent of our sins and keep living. 

My favorite part of this is "And so He condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit." God gives those of us who live according to the Spirit (aka those of us who are in Christ Jesus) the strength to refrain from sinning. So, according to this, to be "in Christ Jesus", the righteous requirements of the law must be met in us.

v. 5-11

“Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.”

The mind controlled by the Spirit, aka the mind of those who are in Christ Jesus, aka the mind of those who meet the requirements of God's law, have their minds set on what God wants. Everyone else is thinking about what they want. The former will inherit eternal life; the latter will inherit eternal damnation. The former can please God; the latter cannot. When we don't follow God's laws, we don't please Him, and if we die not pleasing Him, we die separated from Him, and we go to hell.

"You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you." If the Spirit of God lives in you, you will deny the sinful nature and follow God's laws. There it is again. Those who are in Christ Jesus follow God's laws.

v. 12-14

“Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.”

We're obligated, as believers, to deny the sinful nature and follow God's laws. Why? Because that's how God can live in us, and therefore give us eternal live. Does that mean we have to be perfect or we go to hell? No, 1 John 1:9 tells us what we can do if we don't follow God's commands and therefore separate ourselves from Him. "IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins AND TO CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS." We confess, He forgives, and He cleanses. He takes the sin away "in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit" (part of Romans 8:4) and when we're free of sin He comes to live in us so we can have eternal life. That's salvation. Salvation isn't saying a little prayer and then doing whatever you want. That's laziness.